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Deva Blackfire
coracao ardente
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Posted - 2009.02.10 11:58:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 10/02/2009 12:01:21
 Originally by: Zephyr Rengate
**** me you guys are morons, you complain that EvE is becoming too easy and less hardcore, CCP responds by adding in ships that are for hardcore players, and you whine?
****TARDS ITT
You cant differ hardcore from stupidity i see.
Hardcore: fighting against the odds, winnig etc.
Stupid - training SPs just to lose em, so you can train em again, to lose em again.
Both t2 ships and t3 will surely pop as fast when faced with 10 ships shooting at you. Both ships can evade this fate by player skill (deciding when to engage). Both ships will be probably similiar in their abilities (heck even if t3 is 1,5x better all round its not much). And yet one who spends more time is penalized more.
Nope, not worth the risk. But i can tell you one thing: suicide ganking them will be FUN. Imagine the whines on forums, hate mails, emoragequits. Hell - its worth every isk.
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Now the whole expansion is based around T3 ships and the stuff needed to build them, and if they are not attractive enough for a significant number of people to fly them the whole expansion becomes kinda moot.
This. The WHOLE expansion is based on t3. "Look we give you new ships". its almost as good as giving you expansion with titans. Will you fly one? Maybe in 2-3 years. Maybe.
Same is with t3 at a glance. Will you fly them? Maybe. Once or twice. And then they will just rest in hangars as a novelty item and everyone gets back to t1/t2. Insurable, easy to lose and replace, no penalties.
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Deva Blackfire
coracao ardente
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Posted - 2009.02.10 12:17:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Ratchman
Originally by: Sheriff Jones
I just have to say; for a bunch of people advocating risk vs reward, the antipathy towards skillpoint loss when death occurs, is a bit ironic 
Damn straight. All that 'taurus excretus' they came up with when whinging about there needing to be a greater sense of loss, and they moan when they get what they wanted.
Why dont we just make it so if you lose ANY ship (be it t1, t2, t3) you lose skillpoints. For example lose HAC - you lose 1 day from amarr cruiser.
And why you will say its bad idea now? |
Deva Blackfire
coracao ardente
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Posted - 2009.02.10 12:29:00 -
[3]
Its easy to guess that skill levels will be required either for ship bonuses (ROF, damage etc) or for higher tier components. Thus to fly ships efficiently lvl1/2 wont suffice (i guess hac would do better at those levels).
Also im still wondering what will be average price on them. My bet is 300ish mil or more. |
Deva Blackfire
coracao ardente
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Posted - 2009.02.10 12:31:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Ratchman
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Why dont we just make it so if you lose ANY ship (be it t1, t2, t3) you lose skillpoints. For example lose HAC - you lose 1 day from amarr cruiser.
And why you will say its bad idea now?
It would be a bad idea for existing skills, because they take so long to learn (but you can still lose skill points if you don't renew your clone), but these new skills supposedly take a very short time to learn, so the effect of losing those skill points is only minor.
But like I say, wait until you try it out before passing judgement.
I said 1 day. Painful? Not (like most t3 sp loss defenders say). But lose 50 ships (be it even ceptors) and you will start to feel it, that you arent advancing at all with your character - just sitting in one place always getting back skills you just lost. |
Deva Blackfire
coracao ardente
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Posted - 2009.02.10 13:36:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Rviii
Give me a break, it's one level on a level X1 skill, not the end of EVE, While I fly my pretty T3 you fly your T3, see ya when I get back from Wormhole space. Seriously, there are many other things that are 10x worst than this minor X1 level loss on the T3 specialty skills, thats right from the T3 skills, not your 'Carldari cake baking level 5 skill'
Today its one level of 1x skill. Tomorrow it will be "you can pay USD so you dont lose skills". And in 3 days we get "buy SP for ISK". Its something outside of game mechanics and it shouldnt EVER happen.
Also the time is the only resource which is not infinite for anyone.
And yes this is real issue. IMO even bigger than titan doomsdays thru cynos and other crap.
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Deva Blackfire
coracao ardente
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Posted - 2009.02.10 14:40:00 -
[6]
Originally by: SecHaul
I'm not sure exactly who CCP think will fly these T3 ships extensively after the novelty factor wears down a little.
Same people who say BOps and SBombers are fine? |
Deva Blackfire
coracao ardente
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Posted - 2009.02.10 15:21:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Gartel Reiman
Besides, what happened to people who enjoy EVE's famously harsh death penalty? Surely this is more of the same, and separates the men from the boys? 
If you like that harsh penalty why do you update your clones? Noone forces you to do so. So?
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Deva Blackfire
coracao ardente
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Posted - 2009.02.10 15:36:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 10/02/2009 15:37:04
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 10/02/2009 15:36:26
I would train HAC. And if i had 30 days to waste i would train another BS to level5. And then another large weapon to lv5. Or another weapon spec to lv5. Because when i get em they are permanent. Oh yea and thats coming from 70m character.
Also you didnt respond to my question. If you like it hardcore why do you update your clones? You will lose 1-2 weeks of training tops to fly EVEN MORE POWERFUL THAN T3 CRUISER ship - namely battleship (if you get podded that is). Think of adrenaline. |
Deva Blackfire
coracao ardente
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Posted - 2009.02.10 16:02:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 10/02/2009 16:04:11
Originally by: Gartel Reiman
In fact updating clones is a bad example, because it's a trivial mechanic (i.e. I update my clone with 100% success rate and minimal cost to me, so there's no reason not to). A better example is the ISK loss you currently get when losing a ship (especially a T2 one); it makes combat mean something.
It is perfect example to show how hypocritical people who vote for "t3 SP loss" are. Losing pod without clone = loss of SP (highest skill - usually battleship).
Losing t3 ships = loss of SP.
In both cases (BS5 or module lv5) you will lose more-less the same amount of SPs (iirc BS loss hurts a bit more).
Wasnt it you who said that t3 ships are so good that they should be penalized? Then reality check: BS are better than t2 (and i guess t3) cruisers - so penalty should be even harsher. So it is EXACTLY how you imagined it, yet you dont want to lose SP while flying BS but want ppl to lose SP while flying some new toy.
Also wont it make winning even more important and enjoyable for you?
You turned up ISK value as major factor. It is almost certain t3 ships will cost more than t2 ones (just look how game developed, and how expensive all new ships were/are). Thus again your point is moot.
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And given that I'll likely train the skills to level 4, we're talking 1 day for 5% bonus or 40 days for 2% bonus, i.e. in a (very basic and limited) calculation the T3 training is 100 times more efficient.
Id advise you to train all gun skills to level 1. Isnt 10 minute skill giving 5% more time-efficient than 1 day one giving 5% (lv4)?.
And did you include ability to return to combat within 3 seconds when i lose bs with same efficiency? What will be yours? Or do you plan to pvp only on weekends when you manage to re-train your skill?
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Deva Blackfire
coracao ardente
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Posted - 2009.02.10 16:49:00 -
[10]
Quote:
There are a couple of very important differences here.
Firstly, the mechanism by which is the skill loss is inflicted, or rather can be avoided. If you remember to upgrade your clone (which as everyone agrees is something that you should always do without question), then you trivially and complete avoid the problem of skill loss. Whereas conversely, any time you are involved in a fight in a T3 ship you will suffer skill loss if you happen to lose your ship in that fight. The first is caused by forgetfulness; the second is caused by bad performance in PvP. Consequently, the incentives involved with both are entirely different.
Wrong. In both cases skill loss is inflicted by losing ship (wheras pod counts as a ship too). Still doesnt change a thing: you are either "hardcore" and bite it or a "wuss" and try to evade skill loss. As you update clone it means you dont want to lose SPs. Thus when you say that losing SPs is good mechanic you are being a hypocrite.
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Secondly, and more importantly, the skill loss involved when you are podded without an up-to-date clone is indiscriminate and can affect any of your skills (usually battleship as you say). However, the skill loss with T3 ships will only affect T3 skills - I think that's a critical factor in my acceptance of the whole system. You could get lose 25 strategic cruisers times in an hour, and despite your T3 subsystems skills all hitting rock bottom, you would still be exactly as competent at flying any T1 or T2 ship in the game. That's the important part - T3 giveth, and T3 taketh away.
Kewl. And when i lose 50 battleships im still as good at flying t1, t2 AND t3 ships. Why such a difference? T1 loss = t1 skills lost. it will also easily remove all blobs. 2 titan doomsdays and problem solves itself - people will stop PVPing. God this is GENIUS idea! Page CCP, blob problems solved.
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Since battleship skills are rank 8 and all subsystem skills are rank 1, I definitely refute this claim. All else being equal, losing the skill from podding will hurt 8 times as much.
You never lose whole level. So its not 8x as much. Dont remember exact values but it was around 1-2 weeks of training lost.
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That wasn't really what I said; rather that T3 cruisers ought to be distinct from T2 cruisers rather than simply being more powerful. That said, they do look like they will be potentially more powerful, or at least more flexible, than their T2 counterparts; and consequently with the generally held principles of risk/reward I have no problem with them being more painful to lose.
But even CCP stated multiple times they arent more powerful that t2 but "different". So another moot point.
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ISK stuff.
Fly what you can afford. You are trying to prove that rich people will be on same level as poor people thanks to this mechanic yet you completly ignore the fact that high SP people will have huge advantage over low SP people (also ISK comes as a factor back - with +5 implants etc).
Also im curious: how often do you pvp? And what ships?
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Deva Blackfire
coracao ardente
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Posted - 2009.02.10 16:50:00 -
[11]
Quote:
In other words, there will be a very small schism of EVE that will enjoy and use T3. It's just a pity to see this massive amount of content that CCP is considering to be practical to so few. Why spend 100's of man hours developing something that so few will use, and even if they do use, probably only on a limited basis? The whole point of growing the MMO should be to expand content for the entire EVE player base, and I think that this content will miss that mark.
Also this. Remember that ccp spent HAL OF A YEAR making T3 expansion. And suddenly it means that this half of the year "waste-of-time" will be used by less than 1% playerbase?
Maybe just screw this expansion and fix sov/mining issues 1st? This hits way more than 1% of playerbase.
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Deva Blackfire
coracao ardente
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Posted - 2009.02.10 21:53:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 10/02/2009 21:53:59
Originally by: Kahega Amielden
CCP is having you make a choice. Would you rather,
a) A ****ton of customization and versatility on your ships, or
b) The old, static, more predictable ships that allow you to increase in SP slightly faster.
The benefits you get from B aren't static. The benefits to choosing B are simply the skills you wouldn't have trained if you went with A.
Always B till i max everything (that includes drone specs 5 etc). And going B way will also benefit A ship types (engineering, tanking, weapon, drone skill etc). Wheras going A wont help you with anything except A (t3 skills only for t3 ships).
Only exception in B is "specific ship skill" like HAC, Recon etc.
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So if I pirate someone and randsom their t3 ship after I blast it to hull, and then jump into their t3 ship, is it ME or the person I pirated that looses SP if someone takes advantage and shoots the almost dead ship?
You. ATM skill point loss is connected with your t3 ship (you sit in) being blown up. |
Deva Blackfire
coracao ardente
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Posted - 2009.02.10 22:33:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 10/02/2009 22:34:20
Originally by: Kahega Amielden
Quote:
Always B till i max everything (that includes drone specs 5 etc). And going B way will also benefit A ship types (engineering, tanking, weapon, drone skill etc). Wheras going A wont help you with anything except A (t3 skills only for t3 ships).
Only exception in B is "specific ship skill" like HAC, Recon etc.
So then clearly training specific ship skills is totally useless then, right? No one trains <racial> frig/cruiser/BS above I unless they need it as a prereq unless they have every single cap skill, fitting skill, and gunnery/support skill at V, right?
Can you read? I bolded out part which you probably missed (no idea how, my post was pretty short).
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Deva Blackfire
coracao ardente
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Posted - 2009.02.10 23:15:00 -
[14]
See thats lack of creative thinking. Why AC spec should only help minnie ships? There are plenty of setups using ACs on amarr and gallente ships. Same way i already used blasters on amarr ships. Also planning to use lazors on minnie ships (tho need to EFT-warrior it a bit before i fly them on TQ).
Question is: what will t3 ships skills be needed for? Ship bonuses? Bigger/better components? And here we go back to start. If they give skills you might suddenly go from "tad better than t2 ship" to "tad worse than t2 ship" when you lose 2-3 ships. If they give ability to fit bigger components then as soon as you lose skill you need to wait hours/days to get back into fight with same ship. |
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